I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. Facebook Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Thats just how debates work. He did exactly what Jesus did. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Okay. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? . Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? Steve said that if Mary and Joseph had remained virgins, they would violate late St. Pauls teaching about marriage in First Corinthians Seven. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Okay. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. Maybe a little too much. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Okay. - Fr. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. So Steves defending the affirmative. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. No, it doesnt. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . This is not a commitment to lend. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. The same in any intellectual study. Philosophy program at Talbot. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Id have to respond individually. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Their issue is not about Mary. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Oh, absolutely. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. When Mary says My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. This doesnt prove that Mary committed a sin. Probably not like any other piece of wood. There is no exception there. Yeah. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. I dont know how you would feel. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Im running out of time. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. They would be sons from another marriage. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Sep 29, 2021. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. They were both Catholic. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Okay. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. Okay. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. So my point here is clear. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Submit to my authority. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Okay. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? On March 5, 2008 Christie retired from professional football. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. So this next question is for you, Steve. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. Locals is a free speech platform. Make an Appointment The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. So thats another one. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Adelphos is not my issue. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. We ought to do it. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " Protestants disagree. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. He was preceded in death by both his parents. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Honestly, Id have to think about it. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. Okay. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. 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