Using God like a tool. Good point. Im not sure if Julie is a regular or not (I cant keep up), but a new Twitter account alerted me to that article as well, that is why I asked. Open Discussion Page. We are talking about someone very well paid to teach Jesus and model that teaching. Actually if the pastor or anyone is dealing with confidential matters (e.g., a member of the congregation is having a spiritual crisis or has a kid dying but doesnt want the general congregation to know[think back to the 1980s when many people shunned those with AIDS]) his or her email should be encrypted and his computers hard disk should be encrypted (and any backup encrypted). Women get to decide if they want to be touched or not, and oh he did not mean anything by should never even have to be brought into play-in the workplace. Absalom: Avenge his full-sister Tamar; Blood Feud; Honor Killing of Amnon. 1 Peter 4:8 Conferences in exotic locales, entitlement, accolades, a volunteer workforce that actually gives you 10% of their earnings. Its the attempt by pastors to do life together and facilitate relationship-building which will then hopefully anchor the visitor to the church and reduce dropouts and increase retention rates. I dont like people hugging me. You see pastor do something and you know its off, but you rationalize it away I mustve misunderstood what was going on. Down the road, you something else, maybe far worse comes up, you think Oh, pastor, hes a little quirky, but he means well. You then experience something genuinely alarming, you think Well, hes an imperfect man, but God uses us all, no ones perfect.. We sat under their leadership at Willow Creek for several years.. But I believe the women who have been abused by Bill Hybels are telling the truth. Together, they have two children, a son by the name of Todd Hybels and a daughter Shauna Niequist. Ive been wondering if church leaders with abusive pastors have become convinced (or have convinced themselves) that, 1) Sexual misconduct is somehow rampant among charismatic pastors The woman alleging an affair with Bill said that she was suicidal, both to Leanne and to Bill. His wife had done nothing wrong . It was alleged in an article of 'Chicago Tribune.' Further, the Chicago Tribune and Christianity Today too reported allegations about his misconduct. These things seem like nitpicking until you have more information. over my many years associated with fundamenatlist through to mainline protestant groups I have experienced things situations, or told things that seemed just downright wrong. Dee is correct with respect to Hotel rooms. It doesnt matter what they were wearing, what they were drinking, etc. @ Davis and Natasha: It was always funny to me (sad really) how when Bill Hybels prayed for/about something no matter what it was, that according to Hybels God always answered him immediately or within days. I did, and he asked me to come up for a leadership talk, and told me to come alone. Lynne Hybels was born on 21st November 1951. Its the same thing my university wrings their hands over. Convinced and groomed like Good Little Suckers/Easy Marks. Boundaries, anyone? Leave the tabulations to the guy with the higher pay grade. The Bible makes specific reference to this in I Cor. Perhaps God is looking for a different type of leadership in His Church. Excellent comment! @ truthseeker00: Ruth Haley Barton, formerly of Willow Creek and trained at the very contemplative Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington D.C., wrote Invitation to Solitude and Silence, and teaches contemplative prayer through her Transforming Center. Was it addressed and ignored by the elders? What we have a problem with is a man who by his own admission did a lot of untoward things, things that are the very definition of a sexual groomer, and did so behind the scenes while maintaining the aura of one who should be emulated. Second guessing somebodys way of dealing with their own spouse is usually really wrong. When you read it, I think you might as well. of Poor Poor Innocent Victim of Wicked Stepmother, then hit the detonator (after those several years of setting the charges) at his own wedding, when he invited her (and the rest of the family). Having Church in your club title does not necessarily mean it is the Bride of Christ. Bill and Lynne Hybels draw on their own personal experience and a guiding faith to offer practical advice on how to enjoy a lifetime of togetherness -- from finding a suitable mate and dealing with the most common marital problems to avoiding the pitfalls that can sabotage a healthy relationship. Then read the story of Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch. There are too many similarities between their stories. I really question what your true intentions are. But one thing I know, we have a choice in our behaviors. If you have to go along with the silliness (never with evil) make sure you are being paid. Really? My professional organization will not do that In fact, we are specifically instructed how to do email when legally sensitive information is invloved. Ummm-not exactly. I can't apologize for his choices, but I do apologize for mine," she explained. As a p.s. Ambien or the Devil it is always Something/one Elses Fault. Hybels is spending his time complaining and murmuring against his accusers, rather than taking their contentions to heart, examining himself, repenting and coming clean. How many do you want, Brad? The Kingdom of God is not massive corporate structures and clever corporate game plans. Yes, we left HBC ourselves. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: It would seem the as yet unnamed individual, reported to have had an affair, has legal claim against multiple parties. She uses grooming quite cleverly. Oh yeah. I cant help but see your point here. If he is sincere about his reasons for retiring early, make a very public statement for people to knock it off and let him go away quietly. The question is why? At this same meeting, Bill was asked about his special arrangement with I.T., where his emails are permanently deleted on a frequent and regular basis. No one walks away unascathed. Weve seen all kinds of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth. People want to see us deal with our sin openly and humbly. They also have two children together, whose name we don't know. The people there sold out to it will protect it at all costs. Ortberg actually does have a chance to step up and be the bigger man here. Im thinking of 2 comments right now from over a year ago in which you reposted comments you attempted to post elsewhere. So they were flying around the world together living it up on the giving units dimes. If we do that, whether it is an elderly shut in praying for her friends and family in solitude or a person such as Peter standing in front of thousands, so long as we do whatever the Lord asks, that is a great work. Oh well. And could it easily be construed as creating complicity by whoever carried out that demand? You make a valid point, ishy. Most of these people have no clue they are in a thought reform situation until they get very far away from it. If you note, the hotel rooms in these narratives were suites and meetings were being held in those rooms. That ill advised letter by Jodi is one example. Young people are buying cuddle items. (Hoping they picked the right winning faction). Thanks, Julie! Think about it. I also think if its true, it minimizes his and his wifes ability to legitimately point the finger at others, and the impact of their words, and that is very unfortunate. Sovereign Grace Ministries Nope. Since there's been no follow-up on their proposed Sunday morning mention of Hybels, it's safe to assume that multiple sources have told them that they made a grievous error to even suggest such a disgusting gesture. 1:17-25 ESV). That is hard to deal with. And Im 49, a loudmouth, professionally trained in safeguarding& so on. I cannot imagine the pain, the hurt. There is ignorance going on but you may be pointing in the wrong direction. Lynne Hybels is the wife of Bill Hybels-renowned founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois. Oh, absolutely. One-World ANYTHING is a recognition signal for End Time Prophecy Wack Job. Dont allow it in your personal life. Is it possible that Bill Hybels encouraged the leadership of women in order to increase his own access to women who admired him within the confines of church business, giving him plausible deniability? Is faith journey a synonym for sanctification? I would love TWW to enable me to get email notification of new posts and new comments on a thread I have commented on. (In a related relevant situation, wasnt it the tech department that noticed irregularities with messaging from Tullian Tchividjian to women that directly led to the disclosure of his misconduct?). To fellowship with other believers? The retiring pastor calls it all collusion and lies. manner, outline your thinking and why you believe it to be true. WHAT EVIDENCE? When its someone you respect and trust, you dont expect aberrant behavior and you are surprised by it. Simul justus et peccator. (Spell check keeps changing it to percolator!). Lets show the world that there is a place to growth our sin. The Body does not put its faith in humans, even celebrity ones. But thats over the course of 42 years of ministry! Hybels having resigned rather than face his accusers, what will WC do with Jesus and guided by Gods Holy Spirit? That is a typical church response. The Spirit does the work: both in the calling and in the conversion. Read the Bible. I have said his actions with women have been wrong and they are disqualifying for a man of the Gospel. You had a bad leader, and a bunch of elders who were unwilling to accept that, and call him on it. What his wife needed was a hearttoheart and soultosoul relationship. Millions of dollars all. I have seen it done for over 40 years now. Note: Nancy Ortberg served as a teaching pastor for eight years at Willow Creek Community Church. The focus was wrong and a bit too emphatic for me. No one, from the janitor to the CEO, can be deemed off limits to the moral and ethical demands of respect, decency and appropriate behavior. We were in each others homes all the time. All the retreats, big brother making sure you attend mid week activities (I know of some megas that were playing around with a card swipe for staff to make sure they were attending services and staying), the need to be cool, your personal assistants doing your clothes shopping, etc, etc. They adopted the commercial business approach. 3434 pant, right? By Thriftbooks.com User, June 15, 2004 This is the greatest study bible that I have seen. Nancy, like Vonda, believed her experience with Bill was an isolated incident. My mom was abused sexually. Not even the great prophets got such responses. I believe Nancy Ortberg and I also believe the other victims who have come forward. 8 comments. I know this because I have experienced it myself. You would think that wannabe preacher boys would be warned off of that in seminary. 1 kiss Bill Hybels touched me, hugged me invited me to his room I left then went to my hotel room and cried.. Refuse to settle for eloquent lechers. Ephesians 4:2. Without gossip and people looking out, anyone who has been hurt by church/leadership will simply be driven out, and the whole thing covered up. Nothing would happen there. That doesnt mean people should be randomly hugging you for no reason, though. Much Prayer as God makes all things clear. Its so clear how this happened on the womens part. I believe her account. How hard is it for men to keep their hands off women in the work environment? Bills own admission appears to have been made at a meeting with certain Elders and Willow Creek Association Board members. Narcissistic, abusive leaders are masterful manipulators, and even the most intelligent, cynical, questioning people can be taken under their spell without knowing it has happened. Publishers are pulling back for a reason. Just went through the same unity emphasis, as if pointing out items needing accountability, oversight and review constituted disunity or unwarranted lack of confidence in church leadership. Ive been to Ephesus and it is just a tourist destination. Example, why did you agree in front of everyone to stay after everyone they all left,you idiot. I dont know about anybody else, but when I see something bonkers like that I tend to leave it alone, @ Forrest: Tried to handle it internally. Listen to yourself, Brad! April 13, 2018. 1 comment about arms So many perps being exposed it looks like the Lord is behind the exposure. https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/. Hybels was slated to retire from his position at Willow Creek in October 2018; however, he resigned in April 2018 after allegations of sexual misconduct were made against him. Why not go public 4 years ago?? Its uncomfortable but is it anything really? As weve seen in recent years, email and other digital documents have become important sources of evidence in various kinds of disputes and court cases. Rudyard Kipling, The Picts Song (about guerilla warfare), Ok. Ok. But long ago, I realized that these situations are not made up of clear white/black hats. He told me to sit down and put my feet up. Taught many lies in the churches even to the point where we unknowingly give homage to the devil. Stop blaming women for getting assaulted. Character is revealed, not when things are going our way but when things are painful. It works but is it the faith? I dont know if you have any experience with megachurch staffs or not. So, Am I over thinking it?, one wonders. Surrounded by sycophants, who knew better. If nothing else, it is incredibly prideful of a person. Because TWW doesnt have a tick the box to be notified of future comments, and because my comments seem to go live straight away, I have often felt unconfident that the TWW team or people I have replied to in a comments thread at TWW have noticed my comments. All so sad! Parallel universe I suppose; different set of rules most likely. Thats what she thinks is comparable? Sometimes theyre letting you know who theyve really been followingand who they havent been. As I said before, I think people who disbelieve the testimony of victims are the least credible people in these situations. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKkOke2noyc Maybe Im misinterpreting. Perhaps. The Church is built on Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, not on them. Ive told her about the many intelligent comments here! Come Lord Jesus! Maybe they even went to the Wailing Wall and performed that satanic ritual and maybe were forever changed and lost. Ummmmm Brad. [1] The pair is living in Chicago and is blessed with two children; both boys. The important thing is to get people on the bandwagon, and manipulate them to maintain their undying love and loyalty. This is ridiculous! I know in some places and countries, its cultural, but in general, hugging between men and women in the U.S.in workplace situations esp.is not considered appropriate or professional. But if true it is still not honorable behavior. My pray time this morning brought me directly to this passage in Luke Chapter 6 vs 37-42. Mary, you judge day in and day out. He describes how skilled offenders select, set up, groom, offend against, re-groom and then re-offend against the woman/women they target. I hope they will be held accountable and step down. 2 comments not allowed. (Because it was awkward to say no and why would I think a great man of God I had known for so long would be creepy.) That is common respect for other people. This is a well worn story, insert Pastor name here, insert church name here. These kinds of document preservation policies are in place to protect the organization. There are many similar type of things over the years I did not mention. This sounds like the guys in the NHL who put black marks on their helmets when they get hit with puck. I am terribly concerned that there is game playing going on here by people who cannot accept that Bill Hybels has resigned and he did so believe there are problems that people cannot accept. The inner motivations and thoughts of an individual. Put it in context and think about such a convo. Updated | Rev. The Willow Creek board apparently presented a report saying there was no evidence to support the Bill Hybills allegations? Peter loved Jesus and responded in anger- causing physical harm to Malchus. It is the Spirits job to convict and change.. This one is so true. That has got to be trans-species perversion right there. Less excusable is the behavior of the elders after it started coming out. And Charisma House/new Mark Driscoll book . Learn to value yourself. Huge. Celebrity is credibility in that world. Joss Whedon Is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals, according to his ex-wife Kai Cole in her guest post on *The Wrap*. Willow Creek does not need the current crop of leaders. This was not about a long hug. We would have food, beverages, snacks, etc. Assuming TWW readers have spent some time absorbing background and details about Bill Hybels and the evidence from the women who came forward with accusations, what do you see as possible points and patterns with that case study, compared with those of Joss Whedon and Lawrence Krauss? Or is this site simply about wholesale condemnation. Some will sadly never make the decision to follow Christ. but I know you dont have that set up. People can wait decades. Not out of God directly pushing the SMITE button, but that Davids actions set chains of events in action that later came around to bite back HARD. I think there can be a benefit when many people have a genuine need for human touch. This morning, Nancy Ortberg posted Flawed Process, Wounded Women on her website. That is my point. Sounds like wing ding anti Semitic tripe. I was never a member, but many family members were including on the entertainment, I mean worship, team. (That last one is pure fun in a mega church because you have to trust the elders/boards. The old Soviet government arrested and jailed Christians. And a pedestal they can fall from and did. Jesus is our model of leadership. Who would believe any of it if it were not for the Ortbergs? She had no way of knowing of other incidents and we now see why. Not that hugs are linked to drugs; I am just meandering. Its up to the Willow Creek to distinguish themselves and so far, based on the comments here, they have not. Publishers are pulling back for a reason. @ okrapod: Willow Creek needs Jesus and they need to let Him be in control. Thats why it cant be measured in terms of numbers, and in the case of Graham and Hybels are likely massively inflated anyway, and again, they dont get the numbers credit in any event, because its not that simple, its an enormously complex process that leads anyone to this or that place where they hear a message that the Holy Spirit uses to tip them over the fence. Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? Long after no one can remember Willow Creek and the building is long gone, Jesus will still be Lord. Why did I brush aside all of these things as if they did not matter?. OK. Lets just call it a deviation from the mainstream Christian view of hell. No worries. @ Julie: Bill Hybels married Lynne Hybels back in 1974. https://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Cults-Insidious-All-Consuming-Organization/dp/0814404936. For most, even for insiders (like I used to be, 2x an elder) it takes a very long time to finally look at things as they actually are and admit Pastor is not only not a decent guy, but whether hes aware of it or not, hes likely sold out to the service of hell itself! And many of them are, perhaps a number that would shock us all. So, Am I over thinking it?, one wonders. Mahaney books. And ironically, asking that question is why. Very often, as you point out, in times of crisis, people respond in ways that reveal. This year in 2018, Bill has been publicly accused of sexual harassment and h e has resigned from the megachurch he and Lynne founded. Anyone who would reject Jesus Christ as his/her savior because of this (or any) scandal was not saved in the first place. We saw the dirty laundry, the rebellious child, etc. They were taking Jesus away to be put in trial. And then sometimes, you end up like me: done with it all, the system that props up people with give the title pastor, that is like fresh meat to the malignant narcissist. I suspect (although I dont know for sure) that a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin. i.e. I was contemplating a megachurch model the other day where teaching pastors had term limits or rotating speakers. Throughout this scorching page-turner, Roy is charming and has a @ Law Prof: One more narcissistic, egotistical, Out of control, self-serving man in a position of trust has been stopped in his tracts. It would seem somewhat of a legal issue to go around wiping documents and videos, no? Nothing substitutes for diligent study and wide reading. And it all comes cloaked in the name of the Christianity and the Church. 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